Most From TalkLeft:
Yet just as America does not benefit from the reduction of political debate to partisan name-calling, it also does not benefit from the stifling of debate. The real message of Durbin’s statement – that we must investigate and stop inhumane treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo and other military prisons – is one we can’t afford to ignore.
Had Durbin not invoked the Nazis, Stalin and Pol Pot, it very well may have been.
The centerpiece of Durbin’s statement was criticism of President Bush and his top advisers for declaring that the Geneva Convention doesn’t apply to individuals taken into custody by the United States if American officials designate them as terrorists. The senator said the result has been mistreatment of prisoners, even torture, at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq
In fact, the government shipped these prisoners off to Guantanamo Bay believing that since the naval base is on Cuban soil, our government could claim that the laws of the United States do not apply.
The U.S. Supreme Court rejected that argument.
Compared to government prison camps in other countries and the brutality of terrorists themselves, some of the tactics applied at Guantanamo Bay may not seem extreme.
Nevertheless, I hope Americans are shocked.
Republican and Democratic senators have expressed revulsion and asked the Bush administration to close the camp.
This country must not wait for the day to come when the U.S. applies torture tactics that are truly worthy of comparisons to Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.
During World War II, when Japan murdered American POWs and the Germans mistreated prisoners, Americans continued to treat captured enemy soldiers with respect and dignity.
The United States proudly stood by the Geneva Convention, which our government now tries to ignore.
Near the end of his speech, Durbin quoted from a Supreme Court ruling that claimed President Lincoln did not have the right to suspend habeas corpus during the Civil War.
“The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances …”
If we fight terrorism by behaving like terrorists, we will lose this war … and risk our country’s soul.
Now, war is not pretty. Some of the above may be defensible. But it is debatable. Mistreating people, some possibly innocent, in a harsh prison forever is not an Illinois value.
Nor is it an Illinois value to take a person who might possess some intelligence of possible value, stake them out naked on the ground, turn up an air-conditioner until they?re shaking with cold, play ear-splitting music, and watch them defecate and urinate on themselves. That, in fact, was the conduct Mr. Durbin was protesting.
Andy McKenna, the chairman of the Illinois Republican Party, released a statement calling Mr. Durbin ?mean-spirited? and demanding that he ?defend those Illinoisans who are, or have, sacrificed in the nation?s service.?
He did, Andy. He did by arguing that America doesn?t torture people, whatever some leaders may want. And besides, with former Gov. George Ryan?s trial coming up, don?t you have better things to do than issuing misleading statements to please the White House?
What he did was read an FBI account about a Guantanamo Bay prisoner chained to the floor, in a fetal position, subjected to extreme heat and cold, and without food or water. Durbin said Americans who read that report would never think the reference was to an American-run prison, but that “this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings.” The line came toward the end of a long speech which argued that whether the prison at the Cuban base should be kept open or closed is the wrong issue.
The treatment of prisoners is the right issue, and so is how long we will keep those we have taken in a war on terrorism that is unlikely to end in our lifetimes, if ever. Unfortunately, Durbin’s rhetorical gluttony has diminished our efforts to grapple with these issues in a way that will both protect the United States and honor a long history which holds Americans to a higher standard. At a minimum, the senator should have said that the vast majority of those Americans assigned to our prison camps treat their charges in a manner that honors our history.
One should invoke the names of Hitler and Pol Pot, or Stalin and Mao, sparingly, first because it diminishes the brutality of regimes that together are believed to have killed 100 million civilians. And secondly because it is harder to hear the rest of the message when one misuses the names of tyrants.
To the human being Durbin described laying on a Guantanamo prison concrete floor, chained in excrement, alternating between stifling heat or chilling cold, it’s torture plain and simple.
Extreme and sometimes cruel measures can be necessary to extract specific information from enemy combatants. What rightfully aggravates Durbin is that this torture of prisoners in U.S. custody doesn’t seem to meet any kind of end. The cruelty in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib seems a random result of a breakdown of discipline and procedure. It obviously isn’t leading to great gains in the war on terror.
You want reason for American outrage? How about this: The death rate of U.S. soldiers in Iraq is escalating. Six more soldiers died in Iraq Friday. And there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And Osama bin Laden remains at large.
Just how stupid is Dick Durbin? If he wants to have a real, honest debate, then don’t make these stupid, insulting, and inflammatory comparisons. Just let the description speak for itself, and then appeal to our common sense of decency. Don’t poison the well and then complain nobody wants to drink from it.
And as part of that debate, we’re going to have to discuss what is and what isn’t torture and just how close we think we should come to it without a lot of name calling and inflammatory comparisons (I know, ain’t gonna happen, but still).
And one final note, it doesn’t say much for Dick that he stonewalled until Daley told him to take a dive — what a hack.
Not nearly as stupid as people who didn’t read the whole statement and never notice that he never mentions soldiers, but he does mention the administration that has systematically torn down the systems to prevent torture. Trying to claim he was talking about soldiers can only occur if one didn’t read what he said. I’ve linked to it, take a look.
Common sense and decency requires that one actually read what he said and not what one wants him to have said. What he did say was that one wouldn’t expect to hear such descriptions coming from an American prison camp. Do you expect such comparisons to come from an American prison camp? I don’t. And I’m ashamed my country has done such things, just as I’m ashamed that we’ve tortured people for confessions in criminal cases.
And Fuck Daley. That’s the same thing he said when he was covering up for John Burge’s torture ring while Daley was State’s Attorney. Daley has no room to talk on this issue since he had all the warning in the world about torture in his own cases and never blew the whistle.
Your comments are spot on about Daley, which is why it’s so pathetic that Durbin stonewalled until the hand in the puppet signaled it was time to apologize.
As I have read Durbin’s comments in full, more than once, I assume your remarks about such don’t apply to me.
As he was making his speech, and making his points, he just couldn’t help himself so he had to overreach and say “you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime–Pol Pot or others–that had no concern for human beings.”
And boom, there goes his argument up in flames, because even what he described, as awful as it is, doesn’t compare to the Nazis, the Soviets, Pol Pot, or by the way, Saddam Hussein, Castro, Kim Il Jong, The Mullahs of Iran, Bashir Assad, the Saudis, and Robert Mugabe among others. If he doesn’t know that, then his judgement is no good. And if he doesn’t realize his remarks are beyond the pale, his judgement is no good. You have to wonder if he cares or he’s just trying to score debate points.
The discussion shouldn’t be about who’s worse, or who’s bad, but what should we do, what is permissible and what isn’t for the US, not because we’re trying to stay one step above the bottom rung, but because we want to do what is right.
Most of that vindictive is for Da Mare himself. Just a little cranky and sick and you, know. No, I think your comments are fine.
I have a different interpretation of why he said it, but I’ll leave that for a post. But your comments are reasonable–especially given Sweet’s article.
You weren’t driving in North County yesterday morning around 7:30 AM by any chance? Just curious.
As ever your friend.