From Comments:
AP, while 70 percent of Iraqi detainees have been picked up for merely “Driving While Iraqi,” the particular Iraqis Sen. Inhofe refers to were segregated because they were caught doing mean things, such as shooting and blowing up Americans.
Wrong. It’s unfortunate that people don’t actually read the Red Cross report before that it’s details are different. The report concerns the treatment of prisoners who are covered under the Geneva Convention and thus the segregated unit are prisoners of war or similar and who are covered in the report–not the street criminals and such are in the other portions of the prison.
Suggesting that they were arrested for driving while Iraqi is nothing more than an attempt to divert attention from a very real scandal. And if one were to read the report, one would see serious allegations of random arrests and abuse during those arrests. But one wouldn’t want that to get in the way of a good story, would one?
The stunning thing is the ‘regular’ criminals were pretty much running the Iraqi guards.
Sen. Inhofe is probably correct in his facts.
In the end this is probably a wash. I know how much many on the left are hoping for the US to be swiftly defeated — alas, this incident isn’t going to do it.
Bull. Absolute bull. And Greg is getting his talking points from Tom DeLay apparently. The point isn’t to raise money. The point isn’t to lose a war (a war I supported initially and currently think we have to win). The point is to install competence into the position of Secretary of Defense who despite multiple failures this President says is doing a ‘superb job’.
I don’t want Rumsfeld to step down because it would hamper the effort in Iraq and in a separate fight against Al Qaeda, I want him to step down because he is hampering the effort in Iraq and in tracking down Al Qaeda.
What do you think of my analysis that Rumsfeld deliberately ordered the torture but left a fig of deniability with a plan to scapegoat the lowest level people?
http://www.collectiveinterest.net/#Anchor-Daily-39531
AP, let me clear up a few things.
First, I used the driving while Iraqi comment because I believe that a lot of Iraqis that have been detained should not have been detained. They were detained because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The fact that they have been detained troubles me greatly on human rights and political grounds. It’s stupid.
As I understand it, the people being abused in those early photographs were confirmed bad guys. I think that was Inhofe’s point. Does that execuse any behavior? No, not at all. But, it does temper my outrage. (In the last few days we have heard of further abuses and misbehavior that doesn’t temper my outrage.)
Second, Inhofe’s comments were directed at the over blown hand wringing that is occurring in elite circles in DC. No serious policy practitioner in DC, including Inhofe, is taking this lightly. Neither am I. The situation is being corrected and ICRC has said the abuse wasn’t systematic. (Thank God!) Dude, the sky is not falling and while a serious issue, this isn’t the end of the world.
I would add there are strategic reasons why we shouldn’t over react to anything that goes on there. As we said when I was in the military, keep your bearing.
Third, I cited Ajami as my source on this issue being a wash, not Delay. Ajami is an accomplished middle east scholar, regardless of whether you agree with him or not. And having a familiarity with middle east issues, I agree with him that the people who don’t like us now have one more execuse not to like us, and those in the region on our side are just as embarrassed and outraged as you and I. I don’t see this changing the strategic calculus.
Fourth, I didn’t include you as part of the group wishing that we would lose the war. If I gave you that impression, I apologize.
Fifth, I do my own thinking, others such as Tom Delay, don’t do it for me.
Sixth, as a nation we are muddling our way through this very complex war. Other leaders might have a different style than Rumsfeld, but in the end no one (save the looney left) is going to do things that much differently. I’m frustrated by a good portion of what I see going on over there, but I’ve been around long enough to recognize that I would be frustrated with other aspects if someone else were in charge.
Thanks, Greg
One last thing… with regard to the ICRC report…
Who doesn’t claim they aren’t being harrassed and abused when they get arrested for anything?
Allegations aren’t facts.
Fair enough Greg. I think I took your comments differently than you meant and I apologize. It’s all too easy to read into comments on the web.
We agree on few policy issues, so it shouldn’t be surprising that we have differences here, but they probably aren’t as great as I first thought.
As an isolated instance the issue is certainly problematic, but just an issue. In terms of our overall strategy it could be considered an anomaly, but the most daming thing to me is that the chain of command appears to have been deeply damaged. We have disagreed on Rumsfeld’s decisions in the past (I think in relation to Rich Miller’s articles from there) and we still probably disagree, but I see a pattern of mistakes by Rumsfeld that deeply concern me about the way this war is and has been prosecuted.
The issue of whether these were confirmed bad guys I see to be a very open question. The CIA–in the Trib reports on this, suggested that the group suffering from the abuse were not the highest value targets that had been segregated. My reading is that it isn’t at all clear, but that will be clarified over time. Of course, now we know more and all of that is troubling.
The thing about the ICRC report in conjunction with the investigating General is that both suggest there are some allegations of limited use, while others are highly consistent across people. So yes, they are allegations, but allegations with fairly strong support. None of this is to criticize the notion that all involved criminally are
Sen. Inhofe is the idiot whose answer to resolving the Mideast violence was just to make the Palestinians move from the West Bank. And to prove he was right… He opened up the Bible on the floor of the Senate to read from Genesis where it said, “God gave the land to the descendents of Abraham.” He then shut the Bible and said, “nothing further needs to be discussed.”
This would be like Sen. Hatch reading from the Book of Mormon saying “God gave Utah to the Mormons.” And there are people who are surprised that Hubbard founded Scientology?