A Real Basic Question

As a hypothetical, I think it is okay to point out that somebody who has made public accusations and claims has certain interests and a point of view based upon who they are married to that may not be otherwise observable to those reading the accusations. You may have to do it to let everybody know where that person is coming from.

Can you out a non-covert employee? Just curious. Not every CIA employee’s identity is classified, in fact most are not covert. Is it good security practice to hide a covert agent as a non-covert CIA employee?

Of course I have to wonder when it is OK to go on a mission for the CIA and then divulge the mission and its contents without prior approval. That would seem to be a breach of security to me.

I have to wonder when it is OK to tell the world you went on a secret mission for the CIA when your wife is or was a covert CIA agent.

I have to wonder when it is OK to tell the world that by naming your wife as a simple CIA employee, her covert cover has been blown.

Personally I hate all classified leaks and think that people at the top are treated far too leniently for them and don’ take them seriously. I like to see so many people get worked up and I only hope they apply these standards to other leaks.

And if Fitzgerald’s investigation turns up hard evidence that Karl Rove or any other White House Staffer deliberately blew the cover of someone he knew to be a covert CIA agent, I’ll be hopping mad. Yes, jail time mad. I’ll still be asking myself who in the CIA leaked to Rove and won’t think the investigation is complete until we find out who.

But we aren’t there yet, an at this point, all that has come out is that some reporters already knew that Ms. Wilson worked for the CIA before they talked to Karl and some didn’t as part of the normal one hand washes the other of journalist/white house relations.

And at this point, the only person we know about who leaked that Ms. Wilson was a covert agent for the CIA is Joe Wilson to David Corn.

=Can you out a non-covert employee? Just curious. Not every CIA employee’s identity is classified, in fact most are not covert. Is it good security practice to hide a covert agent as a non-covert CIA employee?

Hers was–or there wouldn’t be a referral, but it’s also common that the CIA doesn’t comment on employment of individuals. It’s bizarre that Scooter Libby and Karl Rove would from the White House. Taking the best case scenario that they didn’t know–anyone down the food chain would be fired for doing exactly everyone now claims Rove did in confirming her occupation.

===As a hypothetical, I think it is okay to point out that somebody who has made public accusations and claims has certain interests and a point of view based upon who they are married to that may not be otherwise observable to those reading the accusations. You may have to do it to let everybody know where that person is coming from.

You don’t do that when someone works for the CIA. It’s simply not done. Even when someone isn’t covert, unless they are in the policy making positions that are public, government officials shouldn’t be commenting on a CIA employee’s identity.

==Of course I have to wonder when it is OK to go on a mission for the CIA and then divulge the mission and its contents without prior approval. That would seem to be a breach of security to me.

It was divulged while he was on the trip. This is a very basic point about the trip itself and part of the problem with the absolute disregard for the facts going around this case. Further, he didn’t speak to reporters or write the NYT article until after the forged documents were in the public domain. So–how is it a breach of security?

==I have to wonder when it is OK to tell the world you went on a secret mission for the CIA when your wife is or was a covert CIA agent.

Again, why do you claim it was a secret mission–he disclosed to the Nigeriens he met with that he was there to investigate an attempt by Iraq to buy uranium and he was doing it on behalf of the government.

Further, no one would have known his wife was CIA if not for the leak. Remember, he was an ambassador to Niger and had helped end the dictatorship there in the late 1990s. He was a natural fit for such an assignment.

===I have to wonder when it is OK to tell the world that by naming your wife as a simple CIA employee, her covert cover has been blown.

That’s not what was done if you follow the facts of the case. Novak identified her as a CIA operative who worked on weapons of mass distruction. In fact, until the referral to Justice was made by the CIA, Wilson never said whether his wife was CIA or not. He had said that he wouldn’t discuss her, but that revealing a covert agent’s identity is potentially a violation of the law.

====And if Fitzgerald’s investigation turns up hard evidence that Karl Rove or any other White House Staffer deliberately blew the cover of someone he knew to be a covert CIA agent, I’ll be hopping mad. Yes, jail time mad. I’ll still be asking myself who in the CIA leaked to Rove and won’t think the investigation is complete until we find out who.

Why would the assumption be that it was a CIA leak at all? Given her status was in a report to Colin Powell according to recent reports, I fail to understand why you assume someone at CIA did leak it to Rove?

==

But we aren’t there yet, an at this point, all that has come out is that some reporters already knew that Ms. Wilson worked for the CIA before they talked to Karl and some didn’t as part of the normal one hand washes the other of journalist/white house relations.

It’s not normal to speak about CIA employees. The basic point anyone with a security clearance can tell you is that you don’t talk about the classified information period. If someone says, “Hey, I heard this” You say, “I can’t talk about that kind of subject” if you even think it might be classified.

===And at this point, the only person we know about who leaked that Ms. Wilson was a covert agent for the CIA is Joe Wilson to David Corn.

And how do you know that? I’m fascinated by the claim because let’s look at the phrase Corn used:

“Did senior Bush officials blow the cover of a US intelligence officer working covertly in a field of vital importance to national security–and break the law–in order to strike at a Bush administration critic and intimidate others?

Asking a question isn’t confirming something and the rest of the May’s article is conjecture. Corn says Wilson refused to answer questions about his wife’s employment and there is no one else who contradicts that claim. What’s troubling about the acceptance of this crap is that first hand accounts of Rove and Libby have been made and somehow those aren’t taken seriously.

Contrast that to accounts of Rove calling and encouraging reporters to use Wilson’s wife—Chris Matthews says Rove claimed she was “fair game”. Matt Cooper essentially says that both Libby and Rove confirmed her occupation. What the hell is going on in a White House where that’s considered appropriate. Even if no law is broken, that’s unacceptable behavior.

== Hers was–or there wouldn’t be a referral, but it’s also common that the CIA doesn’t comment on employment of individuals. It’s bizarre that Scooter Libby and Karl Rove would from the White House.

If her employment was unclassified, then there was no “outing” as that means it can be printed on the front page of a newspaper (regardless of whether or not the CIA discuss such matters). If her employment was classified, then to me it brings up the interesting question – how did Karl and Scooter find out? The leak of their testimony is that they found out from reporters (you can believe or disbelieve as you will). If they were informed by the CIA – that’s where your breach of security occured. Karl and Scooter had no need to know, and the CIA shouldn’t be divulging identities (and being somebody’s wife is divulging an identity) of covert agents to political appointees, that’s what code words are for. If they were informed by the CIA without any indication of classification, then again the fault lies with the CIA and whoever at the CIA should be fired and prosecuted. If Rove and Scooter were informed by the CIA of her identity and it’s associated classification and still went ahead and told reporters, then I think they should be fired and prosecuted, and the CIA should rethink their handling of security.

But at this point we don’t know. And as for the referrel, my understanding is that there’s a classified (or at least still non-public) portion that may be the real heart of the matter. Most of the matter is still unclear.

==The basic point anyone with a security clearance can tell you is that you don’t talk about the classified information period.

Yeah, which is why I say if Rove or Sooter were told it was classified and then they told others, they should be prosecuted. But if they were hearing it from reporters or they were hearing it elsewhere without any security caveats, or if they saw it in a document and the portion it was in was marked unclassified then it could be divulged.

I’m just curious how many people you know with security clearances. I bet I know one hell of a lot more.

That’s all I have time for now.

Imagine how this whole affair would have been handled had this been a Democratic Admin. If the GOP IMPEACHED a sitting President for lying about a consensual SEX act what would they have done for his Lying about something like this. Or allowing one of his top aides to GOD forbid endanger a CIA agent covert, overt or even as a parking lot attendant at Langley for political revenge. We all know that the right wing Noise machine would be screaming for his blood day and friggin night.
Instead, it’s having demure discussions about whether Karl named names? Can any of u folks even spell HYPOCRISY?

===Arch, just your dad? You piker 😉

LOL–no not just my Dad–but I’ve been around a lot of folk who are friends and such and have a few now who have it. And you may well know more, but I have some idea.

Weirdest and funny moment was an background researcher showed up to interview me one day over a student. Very strange when you aren’t expecting it and I was running a computer lab. He came up and introduced himself in some very daunting way and I was like…uhhhh..yeah, how can I help you. Then he told me and it was fine.

First, as usual, we are having a good discussion and I appreciate it.

I’m not sure what you mean here:
—-From his oped, he made it clear he was there for the CIA, but he didn’t tell his contacts that (“I’m from the Government”), and

Here’s a quote from the “What I didn’t Find In Africa”

“In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney’s office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake ? a form of lightly processed ore ? by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990’s. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president’s office.

After consulting with the State Department’s African Affairs Bureau (and through it with Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, the United States ambassador to Niger), I agreed to make the trip. The mission I undertook was discreet but by no means secret. While the C.I.A. paid my expenses (my time was offered pro bono), I made it abundantly clear to everyone I met that I was acting on behalf of the United States government. ”

Now, in reading his book, he says the only classified issue surrounding the trip was the memos–and he claims to have been very careful not to talk about them until they were public. He hadn’t actually seen them either, but it was the impetus of the trip. If there’s something he did that revealed classified information that would be a serious issue–but I just don’t know that that specifically would be.

And yes, on the above about classified, but I really do see a difference here where Rove and Libby should absolutely be held to a higher standard given the sensitive nature of the their jobs especially in relation to the CIA or other agencies that deal with classified issues.